Eraser 6's Scheduling capabilities

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Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby rjo98 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:56 am

Just a few questions with the new version. I'm used to the old version 5 where it just runs when I tell it to, then disappears when its done (unless I tell it to show me the results). I like how the new version doesn't render explorer useless like version 5 did while the erase is running.

So here are my questions

1) Is there or can there can there be a "load at startup" option added to the settings or the installer? I know its easy to remove it from starting automatically in the registry, but not everyone knows how to do that.

2) Is there or can there be a way so when I have it manually erase a file, the sys tray icon pops up to signify its erasing and lets me check its status if i want, but then that the sys tray icon disappears if the task runs successfully. I mean, the task removes itself from the task list automatically if its successful, so why doesn't the sys tray icon disappear as well.

Just some ideas. I'm glad someone is working on keeping this product current. I don't think most people understand how important having this software can be.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby Joel » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:38 am

rjo98 wrote:1) Is there or can there can there be a "load at startup" option added to the settings or the installer? I know its easy to remove it from starting automatically in the registry, but not everyone knows how to do that.
The idea of having the program running in the tray is so that the scheduler can work. The scheduler in v6 is a lot more flexible than that in v5 but to capitalise on it the scheduler must be kept running. I foresee this to improve with 6.2 when the erasing machinery is shifted to a service.

rjo98 wrote:2) Is there or can there be a way so when I have it manually erase a file, the sys tray icon pops up to signify its erasing and lets me check its status if i want, but then that the sys tray icon disappears if the task runs successfully. I mean, the task removes itself from the task list automatically if its successful, so why doesn't the sys tray icon disappear as well.
Because of reason #1 above...
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby rjo98 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:48 pm

I understand your reasoning.

I would bet a lot of people only use the program to erase single files from time to time, and don't actually schedule any recurring tasks. For those people, which I would bet is the majority of people since I don't think most people fully understand the difference between deleting and erasing a file, free space, etc, they may start to view this as bloatware which installs another always running program in their sys tray. I don't know how many articles i've read about how to get better performance on a computer where they blindly say to turn off anything down there you don't need all the time. Even though Eraser's footprint is small, I'd hate for it to get incorrectly get lumped in with all the bloatware that's available out there.

Also, I'm sure it makes people leery of the situation "well it said it successfully completed deleting my file, but why is it still sitting in my sys tray", making them suspicious of it.

Maybe some logic can be built in to say that if there are no actively scheduled recurring tasks, that the program does not load at startup. Then when you make a recurring task, the program automatically enables that option because only at that point you would need it. Then the program could also do the opposite, when there are no more recurring tasks, it could disable the auto start option since at that point its no longer necessary.

Just some words of wisdom as I've worked on other projects, where usually the perception of what's going on can really hamper software, even if the perception is not true.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby Joel » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:55 pm

Or, allow people to disable the scheduler altogether.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby rjo98 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:31 pm

Definitely another good option, and probably a lot simpler than the stuff I suggested :lol:
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby nemo1966 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:37 pm

I foresee this to improve with 6.2 when the erasing machinery is shifted to a service


Yes because that's all we need - more services running in the background that do very little except use memory and computer cycles.

Devs really should stop making everything run all the time!!! Whatever happened to "I'll run it when I want and when it's finished I'll shut it down"????

No wonder windows always runs like a dog.

Ah well another piece of decent software down the toilet - time to look for another file shredder.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby rjo98 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:45 pm

Don't count it out yet Nemo. I reported a bug in the software and Joel fixed it in a couple days.

Also, I think if he is adding in an option to disable the scheduling mechanism altogether, I would hope that would mean uninstalling the service, or a less ideal option would be to leave the service installed but just set it to manual rather than automatic. Then you have one extra service in your list, which would be the only clutter since disk space isn't really an issue these days.

It's an ever evolving project, posting your opinions count.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby Joel » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:50 pm

nemo1966 wrote:Yes because that's all we need - more services running in the background that do very little except use memory and computer cycles.
Windows is a multitasking operating system. A pretty good one at that -- for most purposes, I would think that point is moot.

nemo1966 wrote:Devs really should stop making everything run all the time!!! Whatever happened to "I'll run it when I want and when it's finished I'll shut it down"????
Because, when that happened, people complained that it was slow and unresponsive. It's always a space-time tradeoff.

nemo1966 wrote:Ah well another piece of decent software down the toilet - time to look for another file shredder.
Your call.
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby Joel » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:59 pm

rjo98 wrote:Also, I think if he is adding in an option to disable the scheduling mechanism altogether, I would hope that would mean uninstalling the service, or a less ideal option would be to leave the service installed but just set it to manual rather than automatic. Then you have one extra service in your list, which would be the only clutter since disk space isn't really an issue these days.
I really have no idea how this is to be implemented. It's going contrary to the reasons for v6, it may not be implemented after all.

Reasons for having a global scheduler:
  • Multiple erasures running concurrently drags disk I/O down because of seek times
  • It allows multiple users to use the computer and have erase tasks which do not infringe (1)
  • It allows parallelism, which builds on (1) to allow tasks to run out-of-order in the order which minimises the amount of time needed for an erasure
  • It allows unused space erasures to be run without administrator permissions
  • It allows scheduling, as complex as what the Vista and XP task scheduler allows
  • It is convenient for most as it allows the task lists to be coordinated in one location (except those who have been complaining in the forum)

There may be more reasons, but I think these are very good reasons, especially if you compare it to the typical complaint of sitting idle using RAM (not even CPU cycles which CPUs today have too many of!) Idle programs in Windows are placed in a message pumping loop which use a negligible amount of resources, mainly RAM
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby Tgrds » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:17 am

nemo1966 wrote:
Devs really should stop making everything run all the time!!! Whatever happened to "I'll run it when I want and when it's finished I'll shut it down"????


Not to beat a dead horse but this poster has a point.

I have been using eraser for many many years as my primary shell extension to erase files and folders in lieu of just deleting them. Eraser functioned perfectly in this role as nice clean shredder that would do its job and SHUT OFF.

[rant]
Now what we get is Eraser just minimizing itself to the Taskbar when finished. What is this craap! Do not give me any lame arse excuses about scheduler needing to run in the background for the "shell extension" portion of Eraser to function. The scheduler and the shell extension of Eraser should function as two separate tasks of which one or both could be user select disabled if needed.

As an aside I would not even waste my time posting on this forum about this if I was not so irritated about the functioning of this new version of Eraser. Also do not get me started with the password needed to get an account to post on this forum. Upper case, lower case, number, and at least 16 million letters long, with stealth ninja eye's required to pass the last code phrase, sheesh.

Fix this issue or your program will bite the dust!!!

The whole thing pisses me off!!!

[/rant off]
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Eraser 6's Scheduling capabilities

Postby bonaparte » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:54 pm

Joel wrote:The thing that comes to mind immediately is that XP doesn't have the same scheduler than Vista and 7 has. Apart from that, I'm not too sure if there's an API that code can call to create tasks.. if someone knows what it is let me know.


Yes there is an API, take a look at the documentation on MSDN here. There are two interfaces, version 1.0 which works with all versions of windows since Windows XP and version 2.0 which works with VIsta upwards.

This page gives details related to task scheduler and UAC, my reading of it is that if you use the 1.0 interface to create a task from an elevated process then the task will run elevated.

A web search also threw up this (a .NET wrapper for the scheduler 1.0 COM interfaces)

chojrak11 - sorry for hijacking the thread, I thought the original issue was resolved by the latest build?
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby nemo1966 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:01 pm

Exactly TGRDS.

All this rubbish with the scheduler has forced me to use another shredder. I'm sorry but all the rubbish about win7 being multitasking is complete rubbish when EVERY single program you want to use has it own service does not make the issue moot at all - it's simply a case of over engineering your software. The old version worked fine and you are simply trying to shoe-horn more stuff into it for god knows what reason. The scheduler is a definite step backwards and to be honest seems counter productive.

You do not need to have a scheduler to delete files!!!!

Regards
Nemo1966 (Software Dev 20 yrs)
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Re: Is sys tray icon and loading at startup necessary

Postby rjo98 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:37 pm

Joel wrote:Reasons for having a global scheduler:
  • Multiple erasures running concurrently drags disk I/O down because of seek times
  • It allows multiple users to use the computer and have erase tasks which do not infringe (1)
  • It allows parallelism, which builds on (1) to allow tasks to run out-of-order in the order which minimises the amount of time needed for an erasure
  • It allows unused space erasures to be run without administrator permissions
  • It allows scheduling, as complex as what the Vista and XP task scheduler allows
  • It is convenient for most as it allows the task lists to be coordinated in one location (except those who have been complaining in the forum)

There may be more reasons, but I think these are very good reasons, especially if you compare it to the typical complaint of sitting idle using RAM (not even CPU cycles which CPUs today have too many of!) Idle programs in Windows are placed in a message pumping loop which use a negligible amount of resources, mainly RAM


Joel, just my opinions based on 14 years of programming and supporting users, but I think you're trying to dumb the program down too much, yet make it more complicated then it needs to be, all at the same time. True, running multiple erasures at the same time drags down disk performance immensely, even doing one erasure impacts performance quite a bit. I think if someone wants to run more than one at the same time, they are consciously making that choice and realize the implications on performance. Let the user pick what they want to do. The old version did, I don't see the new version not allowing this as a good thing.

As far as the multiple users part, that'd be ok on a terminal server, but those would primarily be used in a business environment where users shouldn't be allowed to erase things unless they are an administrator. Anything done at work is property of the company, I don't think most corporations would allow this in like it is if that's what you were going for. And you probably don't want people who do NOT have admin access to servers being able to erase free space. If it is their own machine, they should already have admin permissions if they truly need them.

If it allows scheduling, and all the gui is doing is making a command line for wahtever you tell it to do and adding it into it's own scheduler (assuming it is just making a command line based on that bug i found), then why not just have it add tasks into the already existing windows scheduler. don't reinvent the wheel, use what you are provided with.

I would say having the program having its own scheduler makes it less convenient since every other scheduled task uses the windows scheduler, not its own built in scheduler. I look in my scheduled tasks on my xp machine and i have tasks from apple, google, microsoft, etc. I think they have the right approach. while they could all make their own separate scheduler, there's no point. the way you have it set up is a direct contradiction of trying to make it simpler, i'm sure more than just the "people who have complained in the forum" would agree. Maybe some of the people who love the new additional scheduler can chime in with why?

I do agree that windows is good at multitasking. I don't understand your point of users saying it was "slow and unresponsive" when it wasn't running in the background the entire time in the old version. Like you said, cpu's have more than enough clock cycles these days, not sure why the grogram can't just open and close when you need it. I can see on a 10 year old computer where it might make more sense to leave it running if all you are doing all day is erasing, but I think the erasures are few and far between throughout the day, its not like this is antivirus or a firewall that has good reasons to be running constantly.
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Suggestion: Stop Eraser from auto starting with Windows

Postby barbarian » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:42 am

This is a suggestion to stop Eraser from automatically starting itself with Windows. I am referring to c:/program files/eraser/eraser.exe.

This process doesn't seem necessary; I can simply start Eraser whenever I want. Erases performed from the context menu also work even if auto start for Eraser is disabled.

At the very least, users should be given the option to turn off auto start within Eraser; a simple check box would do.

Thanks for considering.
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Re: Eraser 6's Scheduling capabilities

Postby rjo98 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:18 pm

Any other opinions on the subject?

Joel, any word from everyone developing what route you're going to go with this?
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