No option to change default install path of 6.07?

phkhgh

Member
In Vista x64 SP2, I see no option during installation to change default install location from c:\...
Is this correct? May be an error w/ my d/l copy, system, etc., but there was no typical "click to change installation path."

If option to change locations isn't included in 6.07, what would be the reason?

There are a lot of odd things w/ v 6.07 on my system(s) that others say they don't see happening, yet none of dozens of other apps I install seem to have any probs at all. Really don't think it's a general problem w/ my system / OS. Guess I could go to 6.1, but not really using it for "testing" right now.

Thanks.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
phkhgh said:
In Vista x64 SP2, I see no option during installation to change default install location from c:\...
Is this correct? May be an error w/ my d/l copy, system, etc., but there was no typical "click to change installation path."
In the custom installation, below the component selection diagram and on the right hand side of the dialog where the install folder is shown, there is a 'browse' button which allows you to select the install folder.

phkhgh said:
There are a lot of odd things w/ v 6.07 on my system(s) that others say they don't see happening, yet none of dozens of other apps I install seem to have any probs at all. Really don't think it's a general problem w/ my system / OS. Guess I could go to 6.1, but not really using it for "testing" right now.
We'd be grateful for specific details. Are the issues you are experiencing already listed in the FAQ post on common Eraser problems? If not, it would be good to know about them. I also understand your reluctance to use a development build, but am myself finding 6.1.0.2241, which is what I am currently using, to be at least as stable as 6.0.7. That said, I would need to know more about your specific problems before recommending that you use a more recent build.

David
 

phkhgh

Member
Problem was, there was no 'custom installation' option in the 1st install today on my laptop w/ Vista x32. In fact, it didn't present the license agreement. No, haven't been drinking :) Yes, I'm an experienced user :)

Uninstalled remnants of 1st "flawed" installation, disabled Kaspersky FW / AV & tried again. Note: I haven't had to disable KIS to install pretty much anything in couple of yrs - anyway...

This time it showed license agmt, custom install option. Clicking Custom got to same screen as before, just this time, there was a button to browse for new location. [Edit: if I expand a + sign on the items to be installed, the "browse" button to choose a new location disappears.]

I'm writing this for others' benefit if run across same issue(s). There is an FAQ about shutting down security prgms 1st. Not sure why KIS interferes w/ Eraser install, but no other prgms.

After I get through installing now (on both x32 / x64), will get back about other odd things (if still happening). Maybe this will fix some (like drag n drop not working). The truncated file names in lists to be erased in 6.07 was a big deduction for me. Understand has been fixed in 6.1, but that's not a stable rel, yet - AFAIK.

BTW, prob I used to have not receiving email notifications seems to have "solved itself," though I made no changes since reporting it few mo ago.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
Interesting. Until I finally gave up on Vista last week, and upgraded to Windows 7 on my reserve desktop, I was using that machine with Vista x64 and KIS to do most of my beta testing work on successive builds of Eraser 6. This must have involved dozens of separate installs of Eraser, in none of which did I experience the problems you have had. I never disabled KIS to install Eraser, though I do fairly regularly pause it when doing a free space erase. Compared with other programs I use, Eraser seems to co-exist with KIS pretty well on the two of my machines on which they are both installed.

I can only guess at the possible causes of your problem:
  • issues with the Windows installer;
  • corruption in the Eraser download;
  • (less likely, I think) issues with the .NET runtime.

Subject to any more informed ideas Joel may have, I'd suggest uninstalling and removing all traces of Eraser (described both in the FAQ and the manual), and, if you can running a registry cleaner as well. Then re-download Eraser and try again. Even if that fails, it will eliminate the random bad install as a possible cause.

David
 

phkhgh

Member
Ok - installed on Vista x32 SP2 w/o security prgms running. All seemed to go well.

Odd things I notice (or just don't get) - same things that caused me to ditch 6.07 months ago:
1. Help file mentions (VERY briefly) about dragging / dropping files - possibly to an unnamed / unsaved "on demand" job (manual) to be run once - right then. I can't get drag/drop to move ANY files to ANY Eraser window that I can open (so can create a list to save). I've used drag & drop in maybe 100 prgms - usually very easy. What's the trick here? I just want to go into Explorer, select nn # of files or folders, then drag / drop into the currently opened Eraser task.

2. If create a named task w/ some files, & save it, then going thru the edit task / task properties / add data, then Browse for either files or folders, I can't select & add more than one at a time, much less drag & drop (I can hi lite them, but it won't let me add multiple files when click the Open button). Surely, this isn't the way Eraser works? What's the trick to adding multiple files at once? Just about any prgm will let you do that.

3. Truncated file names in (very small) Task Properties screen. When hover over path, it won't show full path, the way many prgms do. Again, if this is normal, it's very cumbersome.
The Task Properties screen has no buttons to enlarge to full screen.
No ability to drag borders.

4. No more "Secure Move" feature in 6.07?

Summary: If only way to create an on demand job (say if want to put 10 - 15 files & several folders from Mozilla / Windows in job list & save) & you can ONLY select files one at a time,... word that comes to mind is cumbersome. This CAN'T be the way it actually works? In past versions, I created lists of 20 or more folders & just as many files. I'm not going to add those one at a time. I'd be passed on to my great reward by then.

Screens that may contain file paths and / or lot of data should have full screen & minimize buttons.
Eraser 6.07 either isn't installing properly (still) or isn't functioning properly for me, or it is lacking many features it needs, that most other well developed prgms do have. Dunno.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
phkhgh said:
1. Help file mentions (VERY briefly) about dragging / dropping files - possibly to an unnamed / unsaved "on demand" job (manual) to be run once - right then. I can't get drag/drop to move ANY files to ANY Eraser window that I can open (so can create a list to save). I've used drag & drop in maybe 100 prgms - usually very easy. What's the trick here? I just want to go into Explorer, select nn # of files or folders, then drag / drop into the currently opened Eraser task.
I know this worked for me in 6.0.7, because I was concerned that there was no confirmation dialog, which has now been implemented in 6.1. I describe the method in the FAQ post on Getting to Know Eraser 6; it's just standard drag and drop from Explorer to the Eraser Schedule window. I don't know why it doesn't work for you, unless you do indeed have some sort of issue with the .NET runtime. That you can check by running the Eraser.Shell.dll file (in the Eraser install folder) through Dependency Walker, and see if it throws up errors.

phkhgh said:
2. If create a named task w/ some files, & save it, then going thru the edit task / task properties / add data, then Browse for either files or folders, I can't select & add more than one at a time, much less drag & drop (I can hi lite them, but it won't let me add multiple files when click the Open button). Surely, this isn't the way Eraser works? What's the trick to adding multiple files at once? Just about any prgm will let you do that.
This certainly works as you would expect for me in 6.1 (including with a mix of files and folders), and I'm pretty sure that it also worked in 6.0.7. 6.1 has added useful options in the confirmation dialog, including the ability to create a saved task from the dragged/dropped files.

phkhgh said:
3. Truncated file names in (very small) Task Properties screen. When hover over path, it won't show full path, the way many prgms do. Again, if this is normal, it's very cumbersome. The Task Properties screen has no buttons to enlarge to full screen. No ability to drag borders.
Agree this is a real pain in 6.0.7. 6.1 now shows only the file/folder name, not the full path, which largely fixes the problem for me. But showing the full path in a tooltip is an excellent idea. Unless Joel has contrary views, I'll raise a ticket in Trac to have that implemented; I don't think it's there as yet.

phkhgh said:
4. No more "Secure Move" feature in 6.07?
That was an unfortunate drop-off. Eraser 6 is a complete re-write, so everything had to be re-coded, and Secure Move was somehow forgotten. It's back in 6.1.

David
 

phkhgh

Member
Thanks for your help.
OK, well obviously something's wrong - for me, or no one would use v 6.07 if it acted the same for everyone.

When I grab a file from explorer, it shows normal icon when dragging a file / folder. Once cursor gets onto Eraser Schedule window, the cursor turns to black circle w/ diagonal line thru it. Of course, it doesn't copy the file to Eraser.
I don't know why it doesn't work for you, unless you do indeed have some sort of issue with the .NET runtime. That you can check by running the Eraser.Shell.dll file (in the Eraser install folder) through Dependency Walker, and see if it throws up errors.
I'll try that, but what's Dependency Walker?

If I do have an issue w/ .Net runtime, it's not affecting anything else I know of. Every other prgm I install works as advertised.

Can also try deleting traces of older vers (or even bad install of 6.07) from registry. The instructions in the manual for that are very short - only 4 or 5 entries to delete? That correct?

Beyond that, I'm at a loss. As it is now, 6.07 (don't know about 6.1) is basically unusable for me.
 

Joel

Active Member
Your drag/drop issue is because Eraser is running as an administrator. You need to exit and restart Eraser to do drag & drop. UAC prevents dragging from a program with lower privilege to a program with higher privilege.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
Given Joel's reply (I'm sorry I forgot that possibility), it's best to assume that the runtime is not the problem until you've tried his suggestion.

Although the versions of the runtime are supposed to co-exist, I had issues when trying to run Eraser (which uses the 2008 edition) after installing an application that uses the 2005 version. The C++ runtime is actually a component of the Windows install, and you cannot uninstall it as such. The trick is to download it from the Microsoft site (make sure you get the correct version - x86 or x64), install it separately, then immediately uninstall it (to remove the problem components) and reinstall. But let's hope that you don't need to go there.

David
 

phkhgh

Member
For me, drag & drop (as Joel mentioned) only works for immediately erasing a file.

If open / import a saved task w/ couple files added manually, close Eraser, reopen the saved task, I can not then drag / drop more file(s) to edit the task list (main screen that opens when "import" saved task).

* If I drag file to the 1st screen showing after opening a saved task, Eraser asks if want to erase it NOW, not add it to the task.

* If R click task > Edit, can't drag new files to that screen & add them to saved task list (Eraser is running in level as user acct).

* If R click task > Edit > Add data > Browse, can't select > 1 file or folder at a time to add to task list. Only 1 at a time.
This is w/ Eraser running in same mode (permission level) as the active user acct level.

Again, I'm trying to create a reasonably long list of files / folders to save to a task, that can be run manually when needed.
At very least, want to drag A file (preferably several at once) to a list to save (not del immediately), the same way v5x used to work.

Also, when open a saved named task, the task (file) name doesn't show anywhere in the UI (for me).
(minor point): Eraser 6.07 UI shows v6.0.6 in top, R corner, though About shows 6.0.7.1893.

In any of 3 scenarios above, (as it's working for me), this is too tedious, going thru the Edit screen & adding one file at a time. Surely something must be wrong w/ way my installation is working? If it isn't normal, I'll go thru uninstalling / cleanup steps & try reinstalling.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
Actually, I think you have correctly described the way 6.0.7 works with drag and drop. I was wrong to suggest that you can select multiple files in the 'Add Data' browser. And, as you say drag and drop only allows immediate erasing.

In 6.1, there has been something of a redesign of the task creation and editing dialogs (an improvement in my view). The main change in functionality is that dragging and dropping from the schedule window now opens a confirmation dialog which provides the option to create a task rather than erase the files directly. This is the only means to add multiple files and/or folders to a task. There must be a reason why the file and folder browsers provide only single selections, but I cannot think what it is.

I think that the improvements made in 6.1 are a good start, but would like them to go further. In particular
  • while I am happy to maintain the distinction between erasing files and erasing the contents of a folder (with the option, as now set by default, to erase the folder itself), I would use a common browser for both tasks;
  • that browser would allow selection of both multiple files and a mix of files and folders (if you can do this for deleting, why not for erasing also?);
  • the browser would remember and return to the folder last used in the current session (or the one immediately above it if it has been removed); currently, the file browser does this, but the folder browser does not, which is an irritation;
  • drag and drop would be allowed for the task dialog as well as the schedule window; dragging and dropping a file selection on to the dialog would add the selection to that task; this is often a lot easier than navigating to the selection in the browser;
  • in the task dialog, tooltips would be used to show the full path of individual file and folder entries.
I shall be interested to learn whether Joel thinks these ideas are feasible. As far as I know, none of them is covered by any existing Trac ticket; I should be happy to raise a new one.

David
 

phkhgh

Member
DavidHB said:
Actually, I think you have correctly described the way 6.0.7 works with drag and drop. I was wrong to suggest that you can select multiple files in the 'Add Data' browser. And, as you say drag and drop only allows immediate erasing.
What were they thinking? (sorry developer team -no offense):(
In 6.1, there has been something of a redesign of the task creation and editing dialogs (an improvement in my view). The main change in functionality is that dragging and dropping from the schedule window now opens a confirmation dialog which provides the option to create a task rather than erase the files directly.
Good to hear. But... if you have a pre-saved task opened, & now dragging new files to the UI, why would it assume you would NOT want to add it to that task list? IOW, giving option (in that instance) doesn't make sense. IMO, you have a task list open to:
* Run part / all, or
* Add / del files or folders from task list.
I never got the default setting of NOT keeping a file / folder on a saved task list ("ON Demand" in older vers). Generally, why would you be adding a file to saved list to erase it one time? Seems like opp would be true - vast majority of time would want it to stay. Maybe some safety thing I haven't come across.?

Sorry they haven't released a 6.x "stable" ver w/ the functional UI changes u mention (could work on more difficult code later). W/O most of these discussed, like going back several generations. Call the update 6.0.7.1893.1.
must be a reason why the file and folder browsers provide only single selections...cannot think what it is.
Nor I - lots of apps allow it. Attaching files to email, prgms like Nero,...list goes on. Don't think it's a Windows limitation.
the browser would remember and return to the folder last used in the current session
Can I hear an amen on that, brothers? Hallelujah! Starting over from collapsed Explorer tree was / is ... irritating (sorry again. Most work Eraser team has done for yrs has been excellent.)
drag and drop would be allowed for the task dialog as well as the schedule window
Assume "schedule window," means scheduling jobs at preset times. Isn't it common sense if one allowed it, both would? Why one & not other (from intuitive viewpoint)?
in the task dialog, tooltips would be used to show the full path of individual file and folder entries.
Glory be! Yesiriee!
I shall be interested to learn whether Joel thinks these ideas are feasible.
What if we all took some 6 packs over to his house? Or some socks full of batteries? Naw, 6 pks are better. Maybe some medicinal hannibis? Or cakes / pies. We've barely met, so don't know his tastes.
 

Joel

Active Member
phkhgh said:
DavidHB said:
Actually, I think you have correctly described the way 6.0.7 works with drag and drop. I was wrong to suggest that you can select multiple files in the 'Add Data' browser. And, as you say drag and drop only allows immediate erasing.
What were they thinking? (sorry developer team -no offense):(
Trying to get the v6 release out of the door as quickly as possible. Eraser 5 was showing its age and there have been many complaints about v5's compatibility with Vista+. I get a lot of hatemail (relative to v5, on forum posts, reviews etc) on the changes in Eraser 6 but I stand by the decision to release it. I am of the opinion that withholding v6 longer would cause more detriment than benefit.

phkhgh said:
In 6.1, there has been something of a redesign of the task creation and editing dialogs (an improvement in my view). The main change in functionality is that dragging and dropping from the schedule window now opens a confirmation dialog which provides the option to create a task rather than erase the files directly.
Good to hear. But... if you have a pre-saved task opened, & now dragging new files to the UI, why would it assume you would NOT want to add it to that task list?
That's a good idea. I've been wanting to implement it, the main barrier being that drag & drop is non-trivial, contrary to what most users think.
phkhgh said:
IOW, giving option (in that instance) doesn't make sense.
This is a different point altogether, and I believe you've got David wrong. You get the task dialog only when you drag to the main scheduler window.
phkhgh said:
IMO, you have a task list open to:
* Run part / all, or
* Add / del files or folders from task list.
I never got the default setting of NOT keeping a file / folder on a saved task list ("ON Demand" in older vers). Generally, why would you be adding a file to saved list to erase it one time? Seems like opp would be true - vast majority of time would want it to stay. Maybe some safety thing I haven't come across.?
Sorry, I don't understand your point. What are you referring to by a "task list?"

phkhgh said:
Sorry they haven't released a 6.x "stable" ver w/ the functional UI changes u mention (could work on more difficult code later). W/O most of these discussed, like going back several generations. Call the update 6.0.7.1893.1.
Because these changes are non-trivial. It's not as easy to just roll out changes like these. In any case, adhering to good development practice, I'll leave new feature to minor versions (e.g. 6.1, 6.2 etc.) and leave revisions to bug fixes.

phkhgh said:
must be a reason why the file and folder browsers provide only single selections...cannot think what it is.
Nor I - lots of apps allow it. Attaching files to email, prgms like Nero,...list goes on. Don't think it's a Windows limitation.
It's not. It's a deliberate design decision. The task is the fundamental unit of work in Eraser. Tasks comprise multiple targets. Each target can be a file, folder, unused space erase etc. A target has to be unitary -- as if you have a target which can have multiple targets, you will end up with a recursive definition of a task. No programmer will want to go there.

phkhgh said:
the browser would remember and return to the folder last used in the current session
Can I hear an amen on that, brothers? Hallelujah! Starting over from collapsed Explorer tree was / is ... irritating (sorry again. Most work Eraser team has done for yrs has been excellent.)
Good idea. But there will be repercussions from this decision, such as the current working directory. I feel that the drag & drop approach proposed later suits this use case better.

phkhgh said:
drag and drop would be allowed for the task dialog as well as the schedule window
Assume "schedule window," means scheduling jobs at preset times. Isn't it common sense if one allowed it, both would? Why one & not other (from intuitive viewpoint)?
Yes -- intuitively. But not really, programmatically. If you see the distinction between tasks and targets above, you'll understand why. In addition, drag & drop is non-trivial, as mentioned earlier.


phkhgh said:
in the task dialog, tooltips would be used to show the full path of individual file and folder entries.
Glory be! Yesiriee!
I shall be interested to learn whether Joel thinks these ideas are feasible.
These sound good. Please consolidate all suggestions and create a Trac ticket for each standalone feature. They will be targeted for 6.2
 

DavidHB

Active Member
phkhgh said:
Assume "schedule window," means scheduling jobs at preset times. Isn't it common sense if one allowed it, both would? Why one & not other (from intuitive viewpoint)?
There is a misunderstanding here. In Eraser parlance (and indeed in other apps also) the word 'schedule' is used in its alternative sense of 'ordered list'. Every task, howsoever created, is added to the schedule, though some are removed from it on completion. Whether the task is run now or at some later time, or once or recurring, are simply characteristics of the task. This concept of a unified schedule is a significant change from Eraser 5, and in my view a significant improvement (though I know that not every one agrees).

As regards the question of whether Eraser 6 was released too soon, I'm very much with Joel. The nature of open source development on a shoestring is such that users have to recognise that they are beta (and sometimes alpha) testers. Joel can only be confident that the application is reasonably robust on the basis of the feedback he receives. Eraser 6.0 has, in effect, been road testing a new architecture and a new application UI. What should surprise us is not that bits of Eraser 5 are missing from Eraser 6 but how quickly Joel has been able to put many of them back in 6.1. That suggests to me that the basic program design and coding are actually pretty robust.

phkhgh said:
I shall be interested to learn whether Joel thinks these ideas are feasible.
What if we all took some 6 packs over to his house? Or some socks full of batteries? Naw, 6 pks are better. Maybe some medicinal hannibis? Or cakes / pies. We've barely met, so don't know his tastes.
Joel is a young Singaporean, with a very full life at present, and several of your suggestions would be seriously illegal in his neck of the woods. But he does have a sense of humour ... :)

joel said:
Please consolidate all suggestions and create a Trac ticket for each standalone feature. They will be targeted for 6.2
I do just that over the next day or so. There's a bit of work to do get things in order.

David
 

Joel

Active Member
Yeah, not impossible -- it shouldn't take too long (probably less than 1 man-day.)
 

phkhgh

Member
Joel said:
Yeah, not impossible -- it shouldn't take too long (probably less than 1 man-day.)
Hold on... I said once I disabled Kaspersky KIS 2011, during Eraser 6.07 installation, the option to browse for a non default installation location did * seem * to appear. I say "seem" because only repeated the process once - not an exhaustive trial.

But, on MY system, when the custom installation got to the screen where showed the components to choose from, when I clicked on a "+" sign to expand, the button (& text assoc w/ it) to browse for a diff install location immediately disappeared. This was w/ KIS shut down. If that's a repeatable flaw, probably should be fixed.

I canceled the installation, started over & Browse for new installation location appeared again. This time, I didn't expand any + signs, & it allowed me to choose a different location. Again, I didn't repeat this multiple times to verify.
 

phkhgh

Member
There is a misunderstanding here. .... the word 'schedule' is used in its alternative sense of 'ordered list'.
Yes, there is. "What we havvve he-ah, is a FAIL-yuh to commun-e-cate." :D (from "Cool Hand Luke")
That raises issue - Eraser's descriptive names, or what shows on the UI for certain tasks / operations may? need some "tweaking."
To me, "scheduled task" (in Eraser) means, as the scheduling UI allows, a one time OR recurring event, to be run at, well, scheduled times.

Joel wrote:
Sorry, I don't understand your point. What are you referring to by a "task list?"
Task List: Another instance, I'm referring to a saved task list(s) - saved in file to disk. Lists of files / folders, saved under a file name, to be reused & modified as desired (used to be called On Demand list / task). Eraser 6 calls them tasks (I believe). My point was, when have opened such a SAVED task list, and if drag / drop a new file to the saved list, given all other entries are already set to "keep on the list," why would Eraser NOT assume the * Default * action should be to keep the new file on the list? Sure, could still have a box "keep task (file/folder) on list & uncheck if needed," but in scenario above, seems default would be "yes, keep on the list."

If you want to erase a file one time only, why would one be working out of a saved task list, where all items in that list are "permanent?" Why not use Eraser from Explorer context?
Joel wrote:
That's a good idea. I've been wanting to implement it, the main barrier being that drag & drop is non-trivial, contrary to what most users think.
Yes, but Eraser DOES allow drag / drop. Just not in some ways / to the extent (yet) some users would prefer. I'm not debating the difficulty of implementing changes being discussed here, merely stating an opinion these changes would vastly improve the usability, AND speed at which users can compile & modify task lists - to save in a file or for one time use. I think most of what's being discussed are features many apps offer (no, they're not erasing apps). No one is suggesting they can be done in a few days.

must be a reason why the file and folder browsers provide only single selections...cannot think what it is.
Joel replied:
It's not. It's a deliberate design decision. ... A target has to be unitary...
I don't pretend to understand all the programming issues here. By contrast, in Explorer you can select 1 or 51 files, then use Eraser. I think the (rhetorical?) question is, if can select multiple files to erase from Explorer window, why can't multiple files be added to the opened Eraser UI, given they're also? being selected from Explorer? There well may be differences in Eraser vs other apps, for this function - adding multiple files at once from a "browse to add" button. If not possible in Eraser, so be it.

If that's not possible, then ability to select multiple files to drag / drop onto Eraser UI would be really nice.
Suggestion: if anyone wants to further discuss the many issues raised here, maybe put ONE issue at a time in its own post. Too much info / issues in one post here, imho.
 

DavidHB

Active Member
I'm a linguist. That means, among other things, that I expect the same words to mean different things to different people. My take on this is that the window in the Eraser program where the work is done is titled, in large letters black on white, the 'Erase Schedule', and that's enough of a clue for me.

The reason for always adding a task (even one initiated from the context menu) is so that, if the task completes with errors, the log is there for you to find out what they are. If a task initiated from the context menu completes normally, its entry is deleted from the list and the process is transparent to the user. I don't have a problem with any of that.

When Joel says something is 'non trivial', he's thinking about the programming effort and complexity. Even half a look at the Eraser code will convince you that Eraser has to work very hard to keep the complexity of what it does away from the user. Of course the whole idea is that the user effort required to initiate a task should be as 'trivial' as possible ... :)

I agree about usability. That's why I am raising the Trac tickets. That said, Eraser 6, particularly in the 6.1 incarnation, is already well down the usability road. Whenever I go back to Eraser 5 (I occasionally use the portable version), I realise how much I prefer the Eraser 6 UI.

I think I understand what Joel means by "a target has to be unitary", and therefore why it matters to him. What I think we are asking is that the user should be able to select more than one of these unitary targets at one time. How the app. then deals with those multiple targets is a programming decision.

David
 

DavidHB

Active Member
Trac tickets 383 to 385 have been raised to cover the usability improvements suggested and discussed in this topic.

David
 

Joel

Active Member
From now on, all further discussion regarding what has been ticketed should go in the ticket. Please use the forum only for new ideas.
 
Top